Food For Thought. Discussion. Not Angry Tirade.

The rules have been tweaked here and there and new standards have been set over the years. That said, as we know it's true, the currently approved apps need combed over as avidly as the current ones have been and new issues need to be considered.

Forewarning. this instant someone tries to say "oh she's being pissy" I swear to god I'll kick you in the dick. It is my JOB to make sure you do YOURS. This is a discussion thing based on things I've seen being overlooked/ignored and even some of my own characters are subject to this stuff.

Example1. Finals. Sojourner's final move was nerfed to hell (It was originally Material Burst then Zenke had suggested I make Hell Bullet the final which is still gimped..) despite the fact that every other final on the forum is much worse as far as I can tell. Yuri, Rui, Lucia. Zaer, I can find more. I believe the point is made. Some finals can wipe out most if not all of a small city and others can barely destroy a bus.

Example2. Spellcasters. They have no real limits. Their spells can, and usually do, cover any weaknesses which makes the weaknesses redundant something I could have sworn everyone dislikes nowadays.. I think Lucia is probably the most nerfed caster on the forum and even she isn't exactly what I'd considered nerfed. Kidou masters like Rena are nerfed in umber of spells. Why don't we at least do the same for mages???

Example3. Dodging. I get it. people dodge. People will always dodge. .....Then what is the point of speed characters. You want to not take damage? Do what I do. counter it with something. parry it. block it. let it graze you. If you aren't PURE speed and I mean that you literally weren't built on the premise of glass cannon worthy material. Dodging constantly is kind of bullshit. Using Shunpo/equals can only excuse so much. Even a crappy speed person can use shunpo/equals, usually, but that doesn't mean they should be able to dodge good too. It's why I started personally making a difference between "speed" and "dexterity" as speed is Raiden and dexterity is reflexes and maneuverability. At best we might want to consider them as two separate things and take that into consideration when balancing strengths and weaknesses.

Example4. Org Leaders: This has been a long time issue, that we mostly just ignored because reasons. An org leader is generally powerful yes. But to say that by default they can handle two 1-1's with a high chance of still winning is a bit much. Not all powerful people make good leaders. What if we want a leader that isn't super powerful but is smart and kind? or evil but calculating? May think of re-working how 0 tier functions maybe?

example5. NO CD abilities. Aki's the first one that comes to mind though I'm sure there's several and I'm also sure at one point or another I've done it too. He can hurl energy.elemental attacks back at someone at an even stronger power than they originally were..........and this is a spammable ability. For all the CD's you guys have been putting apps through lately I find this in need of making sure it's being followed properly.

Example6. Manipulation abilities. We've always been pretty loose with this one outside of how many you can have and what happens if you have opposing ones. But we should look at them all rationally and try to see if we can find a way to limit them at "least" until said character is at full power. Officially stated in RP, per thread, full power not just tier 1-1 or post count or such. I mean, and I hate that I have to use my own characters for this, Rena can literally do anything with water that I can imagine. Making her extremely dangerous in Bankai with just that one thing. Forget any other skill, technique, or kidou she has. That one thing makes her dangerous. Kaze summons general mountain for the effort of mocking and making a quote from a show. Granted I personally rp limits to an extent.. but that doesn't mean the app should potentially allow for unlimited possibilities without some form of nerfing. Like I did with Mina's spells. Infinite possibilities...but can only be "x" strength.

Example7. Organization Rethink. No this isn't to say we need to further screw the organizations. But as with the leader thing these are being blown into such proportions that the Espada, even with the new sinner addition, lacks any real means of keeping up competition with the Coalition AND Gotei.. The Serion, who want to kill everyone that doesn't become them.. to my understanding, run into the opposite problem.. They technically can't be defeated. IN a lose lose situation Serion's still win.

Example8. Fatigue state: We've been lax on this. Other than the end of a fight or in a fight where the odds are clearly uneven..when is the last time this has been done outside of an ability that DETAILED forcing this state onto it's user?

Example9: Stressing of strengths and weaknesses. I admit I do this too. So don't think I don't. I do. But Jun's own words,. as far as I know, state that having more than one strength means that no matter what they will not match a PURE strength character. Aka Rena is clearly a powerhouse. She suffers endurance, can't shunpo because she can't control enough to do it, and she isn't the fastest person ever by any means. But she is THE powerhouse with usually very little equal for it unless it's a boost from a new form or an ability (Such as Broly Kaze or Arngrim I'm sure there's others but you get the point). Another prime example. Tara. As FAST as she is and her ability to use hyper speed combat effectively.. she will never be as fast as Raiden. She can come close. She can maybe even spook him into trying his hardest. But she will never outrun him in a race. Ever. Also side note as aI slightly touched on it in the dodging section. We've been viewing certain stats as one and the same with other stats "combining" them into one and letting it slide as one. We might want to stop doing that.. Example.. I use spiritual energy, control, and power as 3 strengths personally. Because you can easily have one without the others and having all 3 means you are essentially a kidou/magic master who doesn't need any physical anything to fuck your opponents. Like Kenpachi. Cept magical. Speed/Dexterity  kind of get the same thing but to much lesser degrees.

Example10. Resistances, Immunities, negations, regardless of abilities, We've always tried to reinforce these within reason or fairness but let's face it we're human and we have screwed this up a few times. Maybe crack down a bit or make it more clear or loosen a bit or something. Just throwing it out there. This one doesn't have any "examples" off the top of my head but I know it's been an issue. Especially lately.

Example 10: I'm not seeing anything that slipped through. I stressed it enough on Orange's app on the regardless rule, and the ones that are there are either abilities or make sense...I mean, a robit (Serion) does not have a nervous system to toy with nor have lungs or a blood stream, so poisons aren't going to affect them at all. Raiden is pure lightning, he has a resistance to lightning abilities (Aki with fire and lightning, though to much lesser extent than "pure" characters). If there was more or a specific example, I'd see where you were going with this one.

Example 9: True. I've also said you could also separate out the "combined" stats. Which I know I did with Riku. But this probably should be looked at too. Probably when we relook at the older apps.

Example 8: True there have been a few fights where one or both characters should be getting close to Fatigue State, but it ended just before that. I know that one fight between Graham/Ryo's and Kazama's peeps were really getting close to it, and I actually told both of them at the rate both characters were going, they were gonna hit fatigue state at roughly the same time, taking into consideration how hard they were going after each other and their strengths/weaknesses, and I was brought into that one. The problem I see is that we really don't have a scale as to how "hard" someone is going after someone, injury, or other to consider how much longer till fatigue state is hit, unlike Serion which at least have a base idea of when low power mode is reached. Yuma and Gaige were getting awfully close to it, and that was with a break early on, and it stopped before that.

Example 7: I want Zenke to tackle the Serion one. But this sounds like more of a player problem than an org. one. The Gotei and Coalition are only strong because of the number of people in them and their tiers compared to the relatively few people in the Espada/Serion and their tiers. NPCs can be created on the fly by staff or those with permission from staff on events or threads where the odds are...overwhelmingly stacked against one side or the other (though in the case of an assault on NYC, it already has two NPCs that can be played. Zenke or somebody was thinking of doing something similar to Los Noches).

Example 6: I've stated examples of how Aki and other manipulation based characters are used on mine, or tagging something like "with appropriate limits" then list them to an extent, like lightning bolt power of gran rey, 3 posts, cero oscuras, 4 posts, etc. An expansion of the "iffy" ways things can be manipulated to be stated and judged, I'd agree with whole heartedly.

Example 5: To be fair, I did not even know this on Aki...I hardly used him in a fight and no situation came up where I had to use that particular ability, at least recently, so Idk about it until now. There are limits to it, though it probably should still have at least a one post cd at base. We've talked about relooking at the older apps. and applying things. But between RL stuff, other staff duties here, and threads...we just haven't had the time to do it. I've nerfed Rui on my own before, and again on one particular ability when describing it to Zenke about Yuma, in a bit of a fit because of a comment he'd made. If we (and you guys) stopped making threads that would attract some major attention from our (staff's) characters (like recruitment threads or assaults on NYC/KK/Seireitei) and allowed to end some, we might be able to hit them again. I know I need to rebalance Alex too, I just don't know where I want him to go stat wise or if I just want completely overhaul him or what.

Example 4: I've never said could still EASILY win. I've said on even ground, 2 1-1s vs 0 should be a really close fight. So I have no idea where that came from. Aside from that, it would make sense on at least the Coalition. Idk about the Gotei. But definitely not the Serion or Espada...when it comes to Evil, power = big bossman on top...that's how Aizen kept a firm hold on the Espada I think.

Example 3: To be fair, Raiden's durability is average, but he has other weaknesses to counter his speed. But anyways, this could have gone with example 9. Another thing to consider is battle experience and seeing something coming. But the point is made. As stated, I did this with Riku, and in the Fighting Style help section, even stated they can be separated out. We can make amends to just go ahead and separat it out, but we'll discuss it.

Example 2: Spellcastors. To be fair, their spells are their abilities. Unlike Kido. Kido is an additional racial ability. With spellcastors, their spells are their abilities, equal to a zanpakutou's abilities or arrancar's res abilities, not an extra thing like an arrancar's cero or a shinigami's kido. That's why they're not limited. I think what you really want is a stricter number of abilities allowed. Which we've had a total of one person try to abuse and we started to shut that down towards the end of his tenure here.

Example 1: I was a little confused by this as well. Zaer's wasn't bad...Kai could have nullified it with his normal spells and one of his monolith summonings, honestly, they way that one worked. Rui's and Yuri's on the other hand...yeah, they're strong, granted Yuri needs to be careful not to get sliced himself on his, and Kai is likewise affected by his own final and needs to put up defenses to withstand it decently. Soji's has the strength on Material Burst, and the once per post limit. But seems fairly instant, with little to no warning and no charge time or anything and is very concentrated, similar to Kai's (compared to others I've done), so you're more likely to hit someone and them not being able to mitigate damage than with the others. Where his other one...yeah, there's a lot of them, but they're a bala per one. I think we need to relook on this one truthfully, for you specifically. I know Zenke and I talked about it, but I don't remember the convo all that much. But I think that one is more between me and him to talk about it and have it on record instead of on Xat Chat.

Anyone/anything else?

In regards to manipulation abilities and their power one could add more limits to the manipulation so they are no longer all encompassing abilities. I say this in a general sense. For instance, we have to types of manipulation: energy based and physical based. The energy based manipulation (fire, lightening, spiritual energy, DBZ style, and so on) is easy enough to limit by utilizing cool downs and post limits regarding power of the strike or blast. These are essentially in the forum's rule structure and can be easy to regulate. For the physical manipulation the forum can regard these physical manipulation abilities (earth, water, metal, gases, etc.) in regards to damage output and volume. I feel this would be an easy way to regulate these powers by making certain physical attacks with mnipulation have a base damage/power level for what they are doing. Like shooting an ice spike at bala speed would only have bala's worth of physical damage, and if its more than that simply make it a separate part of the ability with a cool down.

I'd like to point to my old creation manipulation abilities for this as I based the attacks and physical manipulation of materials off of power output, speed, and size. The bigger something is the harder it is to control, the faster it is the less power it has, the more power it has the slower it is. and if it breaks any of these general guidelines institute a cool down, such as firing a small rock at bala speed but it has concentrated strength of half a cero can have a cool down on it because it doesn't follow the guidelines stated. And even then the guidelines can have instituted forum rules. If you use a gran rey worth of power in physical strikes (throwing a huge metal brick that's hard to break) then institute a gran rey cero cool down so the manipulator can only use weaker attacks until then.

Lastly on this topic we can expand these general guidelines for defenses and protections along with other abilities such as acid poisons or sensing abilities etc.

In regards to leadership of organizations we can always use a hired muscle aspect, as in the leader does not have to increase in power and rather another loyal (or is thought to be loyal) character can receive a boost in the leader's stead. If anything, we could make a leadership tier and have 0 tier be reachable by anyone, so a leader gains the opportunity to increase in strength by x amount of tiers, and 0 tier can be limited to so many per person. Just a thought.

Furthermore, organizations could use a revamp in regards to npcs and defenses/offenses for free so they remain balanced. This would include have x amount of high tiered npcs with little to no real abilities (for sake of ease) and allow organizations to be more aggressive with one another. This could include raid attacks by other characters out of the blue which could harm an organization (like a mission so people can earn desai or items for themselves or org). This would have to be worked out so the mission isn't bummed rushed by five enemy characters when only one person did a raid mission, but that can be worked out if we go that route. Also captured desai or items can pool for the org to have more interesting defenses or NPCS which can help in events or cool raid missions, or even just so one couldn't have any tom dick or harry appear wherever they want to inside of an enemy org's base. Just a thought.

To point out before I finish getting smashed. I did not bring up Raiden to bash him. Raiden is very well done. I'm merely saying that we tend to overstress or understress our strengths and weaknesses.

spellcasters: yes I know how they work. But that isn't why I brought it up. In my example for instances. Lucia can buff defense and offense physically.. but even IF she uses them on herself it would be almost a waste of energy. THAT is the kind of balance casters need more of. Otherwise they are not only more diverse than any other type of character but can more easily mitigate any attack/defense/ or otherwise. I'm not saying we're doing it "wrong" I'm just pointing out it can be more balanced.

Finals: I think you misinterpreted my meaning behind mentioning those finals. It's not that sojo's is underpowered or the others were too strong or something (though it is certainly lackluster in Sojo's case right now but that might be my fault) it's the "gap" between finals finals are.. well..final. They should all be equal in strength to keep it balanced. Sojo's is quick and effective yes but small in stature. While we have massive city destroying finals as well. I'm not saying make Sojo's bigger because with that power it would become very OP and deniable. But we should find a medium where ALL finals fall into the same level of power and range and such while keeping their uniqueness on a character to character basis? maybe? does that make more sense?

Leaders: Even with evil. If someone is smart enough to properly lead no amount of brute force can change that. Say Tara gave up all her power but raised her intellgence and ability to raise moral. She is already smart enough that this wouldn't be a huge stretch. Her battle planning alone would make her worthy of queen. This is the ideal I would like to take into consideration with org leaders. It's merely a suggestion though. Power does not always make for the true leader's needs to govern his flock. Even in the most evil of circles the most cunning is the one truly in charge.

Aki: I wasn't so much trying to call you out on Aki purposely to spite you cuz I get it I do. but alot of the older apps still used, cuz I've had the same issues, run into the no CD or no proper CD issues for their power. Some are even underpowered because of the newer standards we are used to. like Forsaken. Though in her case it's okay because it helps balance her out since she's essentially a power tank.

I totally agree with orange and your example 6 concerning Manipulations. Making sure the proper nerfings are in place for these would definitely help everything out. Like Kaze's general mountain. While seemingly logical for a 1-1.. and while I only RP it once a thread, currently,. perhaps finding a way to make sure it's stated on the apps to make sure it's not abused is a very wise idea?

Fatigue: I only mentioned it because I observed it not really being done. I could easily be mistaken. Like I tried to make clear this is food for thought and my observations and not a tirade

Example9. I think at this point it's more of going over everyone and making these distinctions more known and re-balance the additional changes, if needed, and making this a thing from now on. I agree with your sentiments on it.

Example10. I just knew it was being more and more discussed and becoming a slight problem of sorts. Since this seems it is unfounded I am pleased and shall happily drop the matter. Though Orange did bring up a decent point.

-edit while soberish-

Quote :

I'd like to point to my old creation manipulation abilities for this as I based the attacks and physical manipulation of materials off of power output, speed, and size. The bigger something is the harder it is to control, the faster it is the less power it has, the more power it has the slower it is. and if it breaks any of these general guidelines institute a cool down, such as firing a small rock at bala speed but it has concentrated strength of half a cero can have a cool down on it because it doesn't follow the guidelines stated. And even then the guidelines can have instituted forum rules. If you use a gran rey worth of power in physical strikes (throwing a huge metal brick that's hard to break) then institute a gran rey cero cool down so the manipulator can only use weaker attacks until then.

I would absolutely be on board for the above. This would not only keep people like Rena, Kaze, and Altima in check as they currently have no true limitations besides my RP experience and fairness, since their main power is manipulation but the way he worded it is much akin to Mewtwo and his homing thing as was recently discussed between me and Jun and may soon be a thing (Yay). Summary: We get the cool shit then a CD but we can still do the semi-cool shit til the CD is up. I am 100% behind this. I would lovingly nerf my manips for this right now. But I am still getting sober...so..I'll wait on that for the moment,.. cuz I'm fairly certain I'ma get smashed again today.

I don't really have to much to add since well as its been pointed out I have been out of this loop for quiet a few years xD. So if I bring up something that already has been done, please forgive meh.

• Orgs- I am totally on board with the not Auto-0 tier thing for organizations. I mean with the exception of like Hueco Mundo, the leaders should be a bit on the political side of things to work with their territory, and not necessarily the strongest. With that being said I also saw this point brought up and want to put my 2 cents in it
  
  
• Obtainable 0tier- another idea I would love to see put in. now I know 0 tier is supposed to be like aggressively rare and difficult to have, but even if we limit it to a 1 per individual It would keep the rarity. Lets look forward to the future and say we got like 10memebers with a minimum of 5 charry's each, that would be 1/5th of the OC population, wich is a pretty good rate that would only decrease (percentage wise) with each additional character. Could also have fun with the rarity and instead of your basic 'tier test' since if someone is going for 0 tier we know they would succeed, do a large ceremonious  event
  
  
• Post limits- i've expressed this before that we should just drop them at this point, almost all the active members already surpassed them (orange and Orgoth being the only 2 under 750 posts). It almost feels like its just there to guarantee a toukai from even a 3-1 charry, which doesn't make to much sense to me that a 3-1 could have toukai. If the Tier Limits superceed the posting ones, why not just make that one the only one. Plus it would make sense that a character's level would affect his abilities and not a totaled count of all a member's character posts, other character posts, app posts ect.
  
  
• Hell- with Sinner's being probably the least populated race, and not a single thread being posted in hell since 2013. Why not completely seal it off. You could say sinners being made from here on out escape from hell to HM or something, but honestly its an entire dimension we never use, also why would a sinner be based up in a dimension that wants to keep him prisoner xD.
  
  
• Culture- So far earth is an amazingly developed dimension on here that has a lot happen in different places, why not translate this to the other dimensions as well. I don't know to much at all about Serion so I wont touch that, but maybe for the soul society we can choose some of the Districts to make much more important and fleshed out then the rest. And with HM could create some larger cities and towns of more cultured intelligent (compared to the mindless animalistic) hollow that provide use to Hueco mundo.
  
  
• Neutral zone- This could be a more interesting place that may though infact be impossible to make, again I been out of this loop for a couple years. But perhaps have a city in each dimension (aside from serion due to their obvious intentions) where the 3 main races can coexist by treaty, and a kind of railway portal to each dimension, again a small thought that could just be impossible.
  
  
• Lore tech- This idea kinda applies more for HM and SS, giving them a themed technology that would be abundant in their world, similar to human having cars, maybe HM and SS have their own varient ran of Spiritual pressure or something along those lines. And yes yes I know most of those races have Shunpou or Sonido...but
  
  
  
• EDIT 1:24; OP Weapons- Yea this looks unattractive i know, and it may stay that way but hey its an idea. How about for tournements, or even special events, similar to how orange suggested items as a reward, we give out weapons that are better then what we can get away with ability wise, like a cero gun that shoots cero's faster than the norm at no post cooldown. again just a thought
  
  
• money money moooonnneeeyyy- alright this is the last one. Perhaps add a way to get a steady income of densai. With the idea of making it so Org leaders aren't insta 0 tier, and 0teir being achievable by anyone, it kinda takes the appeal of having to run an entire organization away. So instead of 0tier being the payment for running an Org, why not Densai. In the admin panel there is a way to give a desired amount of 'money' to a 'group' of members. This could range from Org leaders making  X amount of densai a week. Org members making X amount a week, and even give yourselves some pay for your hard work as staff by giving X amount a week. Along with that you could even do special rewards to members who go out of their way for the forum. This would be an idea for when the site gains more activity, like if someone hand draws a new banner for the forum (like Hisoka did) we could reward them with Densai, or even if they just hand draw free characters for various members. Just nice way to reward nice people being nice on this nice forum.
  
  

These are just some ideas i had whilst at work (its a mindless job) and these are kinda all i have to say on them. if ya want any examples or questions about the idea i wont mind answering, but rest assured i won't try to 'fight' for any of them to be implemented xD.

Fleshing out the boards with some more detail and meat that one could sink their teeth into could be beneficial in general. This does take place in the future, and there have been plenty of advancements and events that change the landscape. Perhaps a small addition to the site lore would be a nice touch?

There have been plenty of events and interesting characters we could add to the descriptions for fun too!

I agree with Kano on this point, nothing helps spice up a place than change and this is a simple easy to do change that anyone can do with ease. Heck we could even introduce some other perks to being in different places too.

Yeah. It's not like the seven of us, six without keten who's been busy, can't find ways to keep stuff fresh between us and still make the forum great for newer members in the future.

Nibelheim is the only neutral zone right now really.. and most of it's truest function is lost because we simply don't have the numbers to make it feasible.. but it's a great concept and it should stay.

Orgs while being somewhat stoned into form..could be tweaked here and there. The "hired guard" aspect orange brought up is another wonderful idea. It also matches with my original thoughts as well. What if the Leader simply isn't the strongest. Could they not employ the strongest into their service or defense? The strongest doesn't necessarily wish to rule.

Rena for example. Has vice-commanded Gotei. Led the Vizard for a short while. Been a part of multiple groups, and for the most part ran nibelheim for a while befor eher rp backstory stuff caught up to her. She's a good leader but she doesn't like the leader position. At all. She's powerful enough for it too.. but it clashes with her desires for the future.

Make sense?

All in all so far this has gone much better than I thought it would. We've made good points and actually discussed things.Maybe I'm juust too used to constant no-win bitching with my useless parents..

Just let it be known. I'm here for fun. I do staff for fun, and rp for fun and telling a story and not because i want to win or be the best or catch em all or rub it in your faces that  "I winned the fight!" or cry because "I lossed the fight." You guys are great. And I want this to go well. I do have things i dont want to change. But i do want to keep this place alive. 5 years here, maybe longer, and i can safely say you guys are some of the best freind's ive made on the internet.

Finals: ok so my understanding of finals is that its not about destroying a city or winning. Its about throwing the last of your power into a last ditch attempt to win, survive, scare your opponent away, or kill them (which cant happen without permission). If you feel sojo's isn't good enough, by all means your welcome to edit him. 1000 bala powered bullets might not destroy a city but if its not equal to or more than two cero oscuras, and near undodgable or unblockable since its from all sides, at once. i dunno what to say. Its up to you. I thought it was cool. If you want a big boom that levels 300yds, go for it. it'll need a charge time though.

Spellcasters: they have limits. Ok. so. Not every shini has kido. but a 1-1 kido user has a max of 25 kido, on top of their apps own abilities. So far the few spell casters i know of do not exceed 25 spells.  They dont get kido, or a zan, these are their abilities. I dunno what to say about them being able to counter their weaknesses though... Oran and Mina have adjustable strengths and weaknesses, which is worse than a spell that boosts your speed or strength for a few posts.

dodging: its up to the role player to get hit. But. Its up to their opponent to decide if they're not getting hit enough, or ever, and bring it to staff. It is in the rules not to do it ALL the time. Blocking is just as bad though. If your not getting hit... Speed and Dex i agree should be separate.

Org leaders: ah tatata... Everyone getting one, no. Bad idea. Removing them completely? Mmm.. Might upset the power balance. They can beat 2 1-1's in a fight? i dunno about that either. Two experienced 1-1 characters could slaughter a 0 tier. Rena and Jensen would tear Azazael appart after a while. Rui and kaze would destroy Grainne eventually too. Its in the rules that a 0 tier can fight on par with two 1 tiers. but i dont think it should be against two 1-1s. I think they'd turn the tables eventually and the 0 tier would lose.

As for who gets it... in an org.. I mean then its up to the org leader to decide who to make leader. But what if, i want to be leader and 0 tier with thanatos? am i just abusing my power as leader? Serion might be a bad example since there is so few of them. I dunno. I'd prefer not to fuck with it. I dont think its broken if we set better limits on a 0 tiers power and leave them as the leader.

No cooldown abilities: we're gonna fix this issue by re assessing all active apps that are outdated. More recent stuff should be ok but can be looked at too.

elemental manipulation: I have very few characters who can manipulate elements, I usually detail my powers, and avoid using things like that. But yes. This should be limited. If you felt that way though Rena, about Kaze and Rena, you could have applied more limits to them. But we can set a better standard for it, and work it into the re assessment.

Just as an example, here is one of my manipulator's limits on her water manipulation. this is from Ariel's app.

Ariel's App wrote:

With the  water she gathers she can fire it as a ball, concentrated jet or a large wave. Attacks range from a bala in power and speed to a cero in power and speed. The stronger, the slower. She can also use the water to defend herself making it into a weak shield, though its obviously very effective against fire.

there is more to it, but yeah. I know orgoth uses a similar limitation. Personally for attacks stronger than a cero i'd prefere if people give a more detailed description of the ability, rather than lumping it in with the manipulation. Also this could use more limits. Perhaps Ariel should only be able to manipulate water like that for 5 posts, with a 3 post cooldown?

Organization Rethink: ok so... I come here for fun. I made the serion for fun. You guys agreed. I didn't make them to "Win." I made them for fun times fighting with humans and arrancar and shinigami. Besides. They wont eventually win. They'll run out of metal to make more serion. Humans can just keep humping to make more babas or clone, or what ever. It could take hundreds of years, but they'd lose. Or they could win. But its not guaranteed. However thats the long term. this is the now. And its for fun. I didn't make them to be the most over powered, greatest, most handsome overlord of Era x. :b

Fatigue state: We just need to keep better track. I usually put how long my character can fight before entering fatigue state, maybe set a few more guidelines on it.

Stressing of strengths and weaknesses: from an argument i remember, the more strengths you have, the more diluted they become. And the more weaknesses you need, obviously. Minor stuff not so much, but the main physical stuff, strength, speed durability, stamina and reiatsu are big.  So lets look at.... Ariel vs Rena. Both have high spiritual pressure. But rena has strength, while Ariel is weak in strength and average in everything else. Ariel, by logic, has more spiritual energy. But rena can still bitch slap her hard enough that it wont matter. If she can catch her. Now compare Rui, to Alistair (image both are 1-1 for this example.) Rui is speed, and reiatsu. Rui would be faster than alistair who is all physical. Where as Ariel might beat Rui in Spiritual pressure, and Rena would beat Alistair in physical strength. If we factor in all the other stuff, at the end of the day they'll all be 1-1 and it comes down to how well people rp. You win nothing, you lose nothing, but you do make a story that brightens your day.

But i'm probably guilty of this shit too. XD

Example10: There is no elemental immunities allowed, unless its your own fire or what ever. It makes sense that Ariel and Rena would be resistant to each other's water (I actually dont know if either character is XD) But it also makes sense that because of that resistance, they might be weak to fire. (Ariel definately is.) Immunities... some have slipped through. Serion can't be poisoned of course. But Diath, an all poison character, can be. She can make cures but it takes a while. Not the same as being immune. There are more. We have a general idea of how to handle it. Regardless of, are still being watched for.

Expanding places, culture, peaceful zone - Yeah. Sure i like this idea. close off hell, no. Reduce the boards, maybe. lotta unused space there. Sinners still stay in hell, they've got a fortress. i planned it all. Its good.

We've got nieblehiem. We dont need more. Serion would respect the peace agreement if they went there. Not all are evil. they just want your planet. Doesn't mean they're gonna attack a peaceful zone. XD

There is more i can add to serion lands. Maybe give it its own board. Earth can always have a few new cities, dublin, london, prague what ever you want. XD Cities in hm and ss, up to rena. we haven't swapped orgs, but we might as well be making decisions for our planned place.

Lore tech - runs along side org shops. Everyone needs a car.

Op weapons - not op. Unique, lore filled weapons that have meaning, sure. Tyrfing fits the bill there. It has its own back story, and Argrim had Tara reforge it and everything. There are other things i can think of. I like the not op part of this.

Money - neh.. desai's not that important. Maybe something to think about, but not the most pressing issue.

Quote :

I think you misinterpreted my meaning behind mentioning those finals. It's not that sojo's is underpowered or the others were too strong or something (though it is certainly lackluster in Sojo's case right now but that might be my fault) it's the "gap" between finals finals are.. well..final. They should all be equal in strength to keep it balanced. Sojo's is quick and effective yes but small in stature. While we have massive city destroying finals as well. I'm not saying make Sojo's bigger because with that power it would become very OP and deniable. But we should find a medium where ALL finals fall into the same level of power and range and such while keeping their uniqueness on a character to character basis? maybe? does that make more sense?

^<-- I stated I was good with Sojo and that changing it would make it ridiculously Op.. I even clarified why I mentioned the "gap" between finals.. you are correct it's the last ditch effort to not die or win or whatever.. but we have so many variance finals that are ranging from fuck one person to fuck a whole city.. we need to find a middle ground and flat-line all the finals. Or at least remove/reduce/nerf all the ones that flatten whole cities. I can already think of a way to keep Lucia's concept of her final and not destroy the whole city in the process. I'd be game for this. Yes I admitted to being part of this problem. D:<

Org rethink: o..o I wasn't bashing you for making them. I was simply putting out that orgs could get a rehaul and a balance. Serion got one thing going for them at the moment, it's they got bigger guns and can win the bombing fight. I never said they would in in a long proper war. Just stated if the earth governments decided to bomb the serion world at any point we'd all become spiritual beings lol. Just logic. Robots can handle radiation. humans can't. That aside I wasn't targeting Serion's only or specifically to spite you. This could be applied to all orgs.

Ariel vs Rena: since they are both 1-1 they'd be at a stalemate in a pure water/ice battle. No two ways about that. So resistance or weakness to eachothers water would be moot. That fight actually sounds like alot of fun

Making new boards is fine with me. Removing them to basket is also fine. I just liked the idea of expanding places so that everything didn't end up in the "other areas" board. lol.

Manipulations: Kaze's just literally came to mind when I launched General Mountain at Alexei..who..promptly..destroyed it.. but whatever it's just a large ass rock at the end of the day anyways lol. Rena, atm, is definitely more balanced than she has ever been in that regard..but at the least her bankai could have a couple limits placed so that her toukai was more unique. I can get behind that.

Spellcasters: yeah. Like I said I don't believe we're doing them wrong.. it's just that with a couple exceptions most of them make their own weaknesses insignificant. That just caught my attention was all. Wasn't trying to start a war about it

no CD or improper CD limits: Thats all I wanted so thats great. Even though that will probably bite me in the ass too I'm good with that Balance is important. Everyone likes fairness...unless it's an event and they want to severely fuck up that overpowered leech that keeps being perverted.... ......Alexei... >_>... lol..

0 tier: ...well I think orange still had a good idea behind "hired muscle" aspect. What if the 0 tier, with permission of course and making sure staff and other posters are aware, gave their tier to someone for the purposes of fighting and fighting alone. Seems cool. I do agree that not everyone should be able to get 0 tiers.. 1-1 is good enough.. though I don't think he literally meant everyone.. I think he meant those who proved to be okay using one. But still. Might overload the forum with too much power in the far future. Bad idea. Could you imagine Kaze in 0 tier? scares me shitless. and I made him. so thats bad.

Dodging: all good points. I think the main issues was we were lumping in two very important traist as one. But we've .....evolved? I guess is a good term? since then? so. the re-evaluation stretch in the future will probably fix all of this. Or make it better.

ON a side note I do like your ideas on Areiels manipulation limits. Maybe we can force limits like that on lower tiers of powr. shikai, bankai and their equals.. and maybe make super manipulation something you can only achieve if you are at least 1-5? I'd still need to rework Kaze, Shira, and Rena. Sure. Rena not as much. but still. I do think that this'll help fix that issue though

See though o-o no fighting. No bitching. Everyone is discussing. Why can't I just adopt all of you as my family and not have to try and talk to my useless parents who don't respect me or think I'm as smart as they try to tell me I am (Then proceed to use it as ammo anytime I make even the tiiest mistake) ....god my social life sucks in RL. Stay with meh D:<

I do think we're getting alot of things under wraps fairly quickly though. Yay us.

Just remember though this is all suggestions until STAFF decides what to put up and what to not deal with. So don't try and go "well I thought of it so they should do it" thats not the point of this. It's food for thought. Suggestions. Ideas. Not a dictatorship.

Or I would be supreme overlord over all and you would be fighting for my amusement so that I spare your lives.

Instead of good vs evil. Personalities clashing. and all the other fun shit we do. for variously funny and non-funny reasons. Which is WAY more fun.

-edit- As for the 0 tier power balance thing. I'm glad this has been clarified for me. I have always been under the impression that a 0 tier had like a 60-80% chance of winning outright vs two 1-1's regardless of powers put into play.. so this new explanation calms my fear on that a bit.